Preston City Council council leader Matthew Brown on the next decade, housing crisis and more

Preston City Council leader Matthew Brown pictured at the Town Hall after returning to work Pic: Michelle Adamson — Preston City Council leader Matthew Brown pictured at the Town Hall after returning to work last year Pic: Michelle Adamson

Preston City Council may not exist in a few years time so we sat down with its current leader to discuss what the focus is for the next year or more.

A new city strategy, taking Preston up to 2035, has recently been approved by the council so we wanted to ask councillor Matthew Brown about Preston Labour’s plans for the city and plenty more besides.

During the hour-long sit-down interview we covered a lot of ground, from the future of the Guild Hall, the controversial Hebron friendship arrangement, his thoughts on relationships with County Hall and the rise of Reform, redevelopment of the city and what progress has or hasn’t been made, the challenges with housing and much more.

We last sat down with Cllr Brown for an extensive interview in May last year – some of those topics above have shifted since then and new ones emerged. Since then Labour has been elected nationally, the governing administration in County Hall has changed with Reform riding high in the polls and there’s been some troubling by-election and local election results for Preston Labour locally.

But away from politics we started the interview by asking about his health as we revealed in November during an exclusive interview how he had been treated for a life-threatening condition in hospital.

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In terms of the city’s economic performance and strategy, which is referenced in the plan, there’s some figures saying it is the largest in Lancashire – which it always comes out as being the administrative centre – and also the fastest-growing. But alternative growth figures we’ve seen presented recently at an event via the Preston Partnership suggest Preston’s economic performance is sluggish in comparison to other areas of Lancashire. What’s your economic plan?

There’s a real conversation about economic values here. I’ve always been of the opinion that the local economy has to benefit everyone.

I mean Andy Burnham has done some great things in Greater Manchester but when you go into that city centre it feels like people are priced – unless you’re a multi-millionaire obviously and you can afford to live in one of the high-rise flats, but is it genuinely benefiting the people of Manchester that way? So that kind of extractive corporate development we’ve resisted.

I disagree that we’re not seeing growth, we’re regenerating the city centre in public ownership, using local companies. I think it’s a very different way of working, compared to the work done with corporate developers like we did before, which would have seen controversial things like the demolition of the Bus Station some 15 years ago. It’s been a very different approach. I know people don’t always see it that way but there is a strategy behind it, so I’d really dispute that we aren’t seeing the growth expected. Our employment rate is strong and is better than councils who are similar sized and have similar challenges around deprivation.

Do you feel there’s a bit of a juxtaposition with developments like Animate? Because although they are council-owned, you’ve got big chains coming in who tend to create jobs but these are often lower-paid jobs, with high turnover in staffing.

There is a little bit of that yeah, I cannot achieve perfection as council leader. I can’t have everything I’d like. However, what you do see with Animate is the biggest units going to independent businesses. You see the people who manage the units getting the living wage. The cinema is part of an independent entity which is good.

It’s part of a wider regeneration too, Amounderness House will be regenerated in public ownership and be entirely independent, the Markets is all independents and we have the Harris returning and of course that is publicly owned.

We also need to remember people want these chain businesses too, personally, I would have preferred a lot more independents but the city needs to get its return. And the cinema, it is very popular and it’s going to be in the city’s ownership forever now, we expect, along with the rest of the complex, so in 10, 15, years, there might be more independent businesses within it.

I think it’s good where we are now compared to what we had and the city being slowed down for more than a decade because we just held the hand of corporate developers.

The city’s economic model has often been branded ‘The Preston Model’, where are the elements of that up to?

One of the things we’re focused on is the community bank and that is going really well. They’ve had two meetings with the Bank of England now and they’re getting more confident now they might get the banking licence in about 12 months. This would be an alternative to the big banks which have shut and moved out of communities. And they are planning to be headquartered in Preston.

We’re keen to have a more democratic economy, which might sound quite abstract, but the more businesses we can get into the ownership of the workforce or the community we feel will tackle some of the social problems. For example Conlon Construction has become employee owned, we’ve got the Mandala Centre which is 15, 16, mainly women, is a worker-owned business, the Preston Digital Co-Operative, the Community Land Trust in my Plungington ward, so this is a radicalism in what we’re doing. I’m excited by it because it’s getting some kind of scale now.

That’s one of the big challenges though isn’t it? It’s great that there’s a business that has say 10 people attached to it, but need hundreds, potentially thousands of those, to achieve the uplift that you would want to see in the city and the economy compared to say one big employer coming in and having a larger impact on the city? Is there the same effort going into both of those things?

Yes and we’ve got to work within the system we have, but through the Preston Model we’re trying to expand a fairer, more democratic system within that and make it grow and get the community support. For example we’re having conversations with places in America where they have alternatives to the likes of Uber, which are actually owned by the workers, and we would like to see whether we can take that software and bring it here because we see these gig economy companies exploiting workers.

And the city strategy makes reference to a Third Ribble Crossing, presumably the one that would ease congestion on the M6 by providing a new link from Penwortham across to the Preston Western Distributor junction?

Yes, it’s early days for this and it’s within our Preston 2035 redevelopment strategy and there’s been discussions with partners. We’re keen to look at it but it’s very early days. It’s a part of a wider plan that’s needed to improve transport for the city, encouraging cycling and also improving bus travel which will go a long way to alleviate congestion.

The document makes quite a lot of reference to lobbying for Preston, is that something the city’s not been as good at in terms of getting the ear of central government to unlock some of the big investment schemes? We’ve had the Towns Fund and Levelling Up but do you feel there’s more the city could be doing to influence Whitehall?

I think having a document like this will actually help that all along the way. We did have a bit of luck with the previous government with the Levelling Up Fund and the Towns Fund, which has helped a little, but what I would say is it has in no way made up for the 14 years of austerity which has devastated working class communities in particular.

We are seeing a bit more funding from the new Labour government, particularly around affordable homes and making money available for affordable homes…

Is that potentially going to be the Brownfield Infrastructure Levy to unlock the likes of the Onward development at Stoneygate?

I’m not sure on that, but I know there is some funding to actually help that development go ahead because it’s a huge development. You’re probably talking £100million plus for that level of housing and they’re all going to be socially affordable which is exactly the kind of thing we want to see.

Moving on from the city strategy and something that might supersede everything, Preston might be paired with Blackpool, Lancaster, a giant North Lancashire authority, local government reorganisation is in the news again – there’s been a survey released last week and maps too. What’s your view on where it’s up to?

It’s all happening very quickly now and we need to get our submission in before the end of November.

We’ve had a lot of debate. Currently our position is we would like a hook-up with Lancaster and Ribble Valley.

I think Lancaster and Preston are very similar cities. It was Labour as well until a year ago and they are doing some amazing things around building new council houses and we’re going to be able to do that soon.

So if we were with Lancaster, for example, that would help that. And there’s a good synergy in terms of arts and culture too and would allow us to do bigger things there.

We are more attracted to Lancaster and Ribble Valley because it would be a powerhouse. There would be two hospitals because the current ones will be around until the 2040s on the current timeline, you’ve got the universities too, the Eden Project North coming and then all the regeneration in Preston, the cyber force centre at Samlesbury and the areas of outstanding natural beauty too. I think it would be a great move.”

Why would you look North when you have a perfectly good partner on your southern border, which has worked well previously for the City Deal, in South Ribble and then potentially Chorley too?

There’s been lots of internal conversations about how we’d all like to see things work and there’s been lots of conversations with many partners and many permutations. I’ve outlined why we became more attracted to the Ribble Valley and Lancaster option.

But Ribble Valley isn’t very similar to Preston at all?

It’s quite small too, but you know, I do really like Ribble Valley.

I think everyone likes the Ribble Valley?

I love visiting the Ribble Valley, yes.

But how do you think people in particularly that Eastern part of the Ribble Valley would feel being put together with Lancaster and Preston?

We’ll obviously be making the case of it. We’re very keen on protecting the climate emergency and protecting the natural environment, and I think that aligns with much of the rural area of the Ribble Valley.

And what do you make of the maps which put you together with Blackpool and Fylde?

I’ve not seen these maps.

[Blog Preston outlines the proposal of an M55 corridor authority which appears in two of the five maps released]

I’ve not heard an awful lot about these maps. If other people want to put things forward that’s a matter for them. I really like Blackpool as well, and obviously we’ll work closely with anyone, but we just feel the best hook-up right now for our area is the Lancaster-Ribble Valley option.

Do you think agreement will actually be reached by the end of November? Or will Jim McMahon [at the time of the interview he was still local government minister but was removed in last week’s reshuffle] and the government have to take the decision?

We’ll have to wait and see. MPs will be involved as well. We’ll lobby as strongly as we can for what we want.

Another report which came about last week is a suggestion, from the county council, for district councils to move to bin collections every three weeks rather than two weeks? What would your response be to that?

No, we’ll never do that. It’s something that was put to us about ten years ago during the really brutal days of Tory austerity but we resisted and thankfully financially things have improved a bit since then. So no, we wouldn’t consider that because it would go down like a lead balloon.

And I’m not sure why Reform are even saying it, and if people are thinking of supporting them then they need to think about what else they’re thinking if they are already floating the idea of three-week bin collections and bringing back fracking nationally. People need to be careful about what Reform actually want to do.

Last time we sat down with you for an extensive interview it was May last year and we talked a lot about the Guild Hall. What’s happening with it?

We get a lot of bad press about it and it is really frustrating because we found the RAAC and our intention is to re-open the whole thing. And we’ve managed to get the Guildhall Lounge back open…

There’s a plan to do more with the Lounge ahead, but there’s been a handful of events in the Lounge in the last six months?

Yes we’re looking at doing something a bit more distinct and original in there. It’s good the facility is open there again and we were so hamstrung by the legal situation post-2019 too with the previous ownership.

We need to look at whether there’s a future for the building and then obviously if there is we can hopefully bring it back and regenerate it but if there isn’t we need to look at potentially another venue.

That position has moved a bit from the previous times we’ve spoken, so demolition isn’t off the table?

Ideally I would like the building back as soon as possible and in good shape and obviously do it as cheaply as possible for the taxpayer so we can have that venue back – there’s been amazing people who have played there over the years – Led Zep, Manic Street Preachers, and many more, it’s been amazing for the community however the situation in terms of RAAC – and I don’t want to say what it is, but we need to properly look at alternatives if it can’t be resolved.

Have you had the reports back on the costings now then?

They are due back soon but I’ve not had sight of them yet but I am getting feedback on the situation.

It’s extensive the cost then?

I actually do not know but what I do know is we’re basically looking at all eventualities because if it is going to be very expensive then we might need to look at another venue.

It’s a different situation to the Harris, which is a listed building and the costs spiralled there, but the Guild Hall while it has a sentimental value it’s not listed. So if the decision is having a venue for Preston or having the Guild Hall, you’re saying a venue for Preston would be the priority?

You can do things other than live music, venues can do other things. You could have conference events for example. You know we need to definitely have a venue back.

I know we get a hard time as a Labour council over the Guild Hall and I understand people are disappointed but with what we’ve faced with austerity we have been really crippled. So the stuff we want to do it’s been really difficult. But before this council ends we need to take a decision on the Guild Hall. If we can get it back in its current form, we will, but sometimes these situations with the fabric of the building can be really bad and it’s more cost-effective to do something else.

Is it tempting to not take a decision and leave it for whatever unitary authority comes?

No, we’ve got to take a decision.

Let’s talk more broadly about city centre regeneration, you touched on it within the city strategy, and I wanted to ask specifically about the Station Quarter and whether there’s any movement on that? Because that is seen as one of the big gamechangers for the city.

I’ve not had any updates on it but I do know is we’re all [the county council, university and other partners] committed to it but obviously there’s been a change in administration at County Hall so I would hope they remain committed. We are keen to make it happen but I would say I want to make sure it is aligned with our values when it does happen.

The likes of the Lancashire Pension Fund should be choosing to invest directly in places like Preston. It’s worth £12billion.

We need to ensure the office spaces planned that one of those is for civil service jobs, there needs to be regeneration of the train station too and it is crucial there are affordable homes within the site because that’s one thing that’s made me quite angry is developers often find a way of not providing affordable homes so they take the profit and the city doesn’t get the affordable homes that we need.

There’s been an increasing number of schemes over the last 12 to 18 months in the city centre where the affordability element has been waived, is that what you’re referring to?

Yes

And what can you do about that? If the figures say that they don’t need to provide it, what can a council legally do then?

It’s a very good point but as I said that’s why we are working with the likes of Onward Homes, so what we might not secure through the planning process we can then get housing providers to deliver that. We will also be announcing soon about how we’re going to directly provide housing again, which is something we have wanted to do for a long time and is obviously more expensive than you might think but we want to make a start.

Is that you actually building some as opposed to buying stock from the likes on Onward in their scheme, you are talking about actual spades in the ground building social housing?

Yes, whether we then have the capacity to manage it I think that’s unlikely. But by then we may be part of a new council and that would potentially be part of the housing revenue account. Lancaster already have one, as does Blackpool. Alongside this we are also working with public-sector partners to free up land for affordable housing, the Community Land Trust in my ward is working with a church to redevelop 21 social properties.

And to be fair the government is doing a lot more to enable more council housing but we need a lot more. Andy Burnham says we need 100,000-a-year and we need to get that again because I think not having councils delivering housing at scale really is getting in the way of tackling some of the inequalities we have talked about.

And where would you put these houses in Preston?

That’s a good question, we have some of our own buildings which potentially we could redevelop for social housing – particularly in the city centre. We may potentially buy some properties, empty ones, and also look at finding places to develop. We may potentially purchase land and that’s the plan, we wanted to do something for the long term.

And with the city centre, a building the council does own, the Tithebarn pub. What’s happening with it? It was announced it needs to come down and is a danger to the public, and then the cabinet decided it was only partial demolition needed, but now, months on and nothing has happened?

We are still planning to demolish part of it and look to regenerate it. What we did was to listen because through what we saw on Blog Preston and the heritage campaigners there is a big campaign about the heritage assets in our community. So we’re responding to public opinion to a degree.

The officer’s recommendation was to demolish it but we had a discussion internally and thought no let’s look at what we’re doing. My understanding is the timetable is still partial demolition and then rebuild.

[An update provided to Blog Preston after the interview by the city council confirmed they were still awaiting the additional structural reports required before any work was undertaken on the building]

You mentioned heritage campaigns there and heritage buildings in the city, what progress has been made? You were at the meeting in January where a lot of frustration was expressed…

We’ve brought in the heritage champion role and we are working with groups to actively look at how we can speak with private owners too.

There is a lot happening behind the scenes and I think a lot of people don’t realise is a fair amount of this is out of our hands. We don’t own a lot of these buildings which are deemed to be at risk in terms of losing the heritage. Where we do own buildings, the Harris, Amounderness House and the Tithebarn then we are taking action.

We are really trying to work with the owners of these buildings to get them back into use when appropriate and get them decent and in use or if not, then look at safety and demolition because in some cases the buildings really have become quite dangerous.

Linked in to housing, homelessness, we’ve seen an increase in the past 12 to 18 months, nationally, and in Preston. There’s a real challenge with housing need in the city, and you’ve got a large number of HMOs in Preston that you’ve mentioned you’re clamping down on, how does that all fit together? You’ve got this big increase in demand for housing but at the same time stricter licensing on HMOs and landlords who may help meet the housing crisis. How do you square all of that and make sure people aren’t ending up on Fishergate in a sleeping bag?

It is a national challenge and we are the administrative capital of Lancashire so the problem is often worse here than other places because people end up here for various reasons.

We are putting a lot of new resources into tackling homelessness now. We have a project with Community Gateway to bring 32 new flats through which will help the homeless community and we’re working with the Foxton, Emmaus and other local charities. There’s also our in-house team to help deal with problems from people who may be homeless due to addiction or trauma.

The new night shelter on the Flag Market is also open which is direct provision we are doing.

Homelessness is complex, it’s not always the fact people cannot afford to own or rent a home which is the cause of homelessness – it may be domestic abuse or a range of problems.

But increasing the provision of social housing will be an important part of tackling it, and I am proud in the last few years we have surpassed any council in Lancashire for new social and affordable homes. Although the definition of affordable is not as good as I would like that supply of new homes is going to make some difference.

Housing itself has been a rising tension and become increasingly linked to immigration, in part by Reform in the last year, how do you feel when you see that kind of rhetoric being used? Preston hasn’t seen the same tensions, perhaps, because you’re not using hotels – as far as we are aware – and the city has welcomed a lot of refugees in the last five or six years, Afghan, Ukraine, Syria, etc, Preston’s always been quite open to accepting refugees.

I think we’ve always really valued everyone, whoever they are. We’ve kept our community engagement function too so we work with all our communities, we put events on where people can mix and celebrate and just enjoy being alive and each other’s company, the Mela a few weeks back is a great example of that.

I also think in Preston the inequalities and deprivation here are not quite as bad as some other parts of the county where there are increased tensions. And I think we’ve also put resources into really educating people about the evils of racism and I think that’s helped.

But it is very worrying times in terms of Reform UK and if you talk about Nigel Farage, a privately educated stockbroker, you can’t say he is from the working classes in any shape or form. So this idea that he’s going to really look after the interests of working people, he’s not.

And if you look at the funders of Reform UK I think most of them are from the millionaire or billionaire class – unless I am seeing things we’re not seeing many billionaires in our community. So I just say to people, don’t get fooled. Because despite what people might think about conventional politics some of the candidates we’ve seen standing for Reform UK. some of their pasts have been very dodgy in terms of far-right associations and the rest of it and we just don’t need that in Preston.

You mentioned there about bringing people together and celebrating different communities, in the last 12 to 18 months you’ve pursued a friendship arrangement with Hebron in Gaza which has proved very divisive. Do you regret that? And particularly in light of the news last week about the Mayor of Hebron and his arrest?

Our intention by doing this as a Labour council was not to cause any division or hostility or hurt, that was not our intention at all.

We wanted to do something in a humanitarian way, and I say this in the council chamber all the time; I have never had so many people get in touch with myself and Labour colleagues and others, hundreds if not thousands of emails, letters and more wanting us to do something because of the devastating situation over there. We thought a humanitarian response would be to have a friendship arrangement with a city in Palestine. The process we were advised to follow was through the twinning organisation as they have people involved like format diplomats.

It’s worth remembering we do have Palestinians in our community, I’ve met a few of them, they work here, study here, they run local businesses, and we’ve spoken to them and they have described losing 10, 15 family members at a time in what’s been happening.

So the intention is completely humanitarian. I know there’s intense feelings about it but I think we need to be judged on what our intention is.

And do you feel it is the place of a city council to get essentially muddled in world politics and world diplomatic incidents?

We have friendship arrangements with other towns and cities outside the UK, many in Europe for example, and it’s not an abnormal thing to do. We feel it will actually be a kind-hearted genuine humanitarian gesture and I think it’s a pretty good one. The advice came from the twinning association and the relationship with Hebron isn’t with the Mayor, it is a civic thing, it’s with the people.

But a Mayor represents his people?

He does but this isn’t a political move, it’s a civic hook-up. So for example with Kalisz in Poland who we are twinned with we don’t have a political arrangement, it’s run by a Conservative council, it’s about twinning with the people themselves – not a political figure.

I know you’ve spoken with the Jewish community in Preston, are you still pursuing a friendship arrangement with a town or city in Israel, potentially?

We’ve always said we want this one to bed in first and then we’ll look at other opportunities, but councillor Khan and I of course we’re open to doing that [the Jewish city or town friendship arrangement]. What we need to do is go through the stages of getting the Hebron arrangement in place, which in itself has been trickier than I ever imagined and has yet to be formalised but should hopefully be in the next few weeks. And then we’ll look at other potential opportunities.

But would we potentially see the Mayor of Hebron standing in the Peace Garden next to Ringway shaking hands with you?

I think that’s very unlikely.

Linked to tensions in the Middle East, linked to that, you’ve had a defection recently. Carol Henshaw announced she was going to leave Labour and join the new YourParty once it exists as a political party. What’s your feelings about that?

I’m sad that Carol’s left. There was an ongoing disciplinary investigation [by the Labour party regionally] which we hoped would have been a bit quicker than what it was. But it’s a personal decision for her obviously.

Jeremy Corbyn was here recently in Preston, you’ve been pictured with him in the past, you supported him in his Labour leadership bid and elections. How do you feel about YourParty? Are you not tempted?

No. I’ve always been a Labour man. We can get into a debate about what might have happened in the past but I’m concentrating on the agenda we have at this moment in time.

I think if we’re elected as politicians of a certain party that it is really disrespectful of the electorate to actually jump ship, with the likes of Steve Thompson going over to Reform.

That’s your view, people say I voted for you because you were attached to that party, and then you change party – there’s some councillors who seem to flip-flop regularly – do you feel it is a bit two fingers to the voters if people do that?

Yeah it is, although I think in Carol’s circumstances it is different because Stephen wasn’t suspended by the Tory party and then he defected. But I just think the people vote for you you’ve got to serve out the full-term with the party you’re elected to.

What I would say is Preston Labour’s always been on the left of the Labour party with its policies and that will continue – and we’ll always argue in terms of a policy debate not personalities but we do think the government should do a lot more to tackle inequalities.

We think the government should look at a wealth tax, we opposed the disability benefit cuts and cuts to winter fuel allowance. And we will continue with that agenda and I think within Labour a lot of what we’re doing is pretty unique.

Is it a headache then you’ve got a radical, very left of centre party, with a well-known national leader surging and potentially going to take votes off you in the local elections?

Yes, obviously that is but at the end of the day this is a democracy. All we can do is put forward our agenda and make a strong case. Politics is not what it was maybe two, three, four years ago, there’s lots of voters going to Reform, and to independents, and potentially with a new party on the left, and then the Greens now have a new national leader and we’ll have to see how it goes there as there’s a lot of people attracted to their policies. And then the Liberals seem to be rising in the polls, so we have to put our agenda out there which I think is really strong with what we’ve done here in Preston.

And you’ve got a test coming up in Ashton, there’s a by-election in the middle of October that’s now been finalised. Why has Robert Boswell decided to resign?

It’s a personal matter for Robert and not something I am going to go into the details of. But he has obviously taken that decision.

He was due to step down next May but it is his decision to resign now. My understanding is he has resigned as a councillor, not from the Labour party.

What’s your feeling about that by-election?

It costs money and that’s something that would have been better spent by the public purse elsewhere but we will be fighting it as strong as we can. We’ve had by-elections before with all parties when people step down, leaving or other things, so we’ll make the case with our policies and we have a really strong candidate who’s got lots of experience in that area, so we’re going to fight it really hard.

Ashton’s been quite troublesome for you in the past 18 months…

A little, yes, but the issue with Ashton Park [sports hub] has resolved a lot.

What I would say about that is we had to take a decision very quickly because it was part of the Levelling Up scheme. A lot of that money has now gone into other parks and open spaces so it’s been successful and our group had different opinions about the Ashton Park sports hub and so we did change our position but we had a debate and we decided not to go ahead.

What is frustrating is how the Lib Dems try to take credit for reversing it, but they were in favour of the original scheme, like us, but then they changed their mind. But it was the Labour Council which took the decision not to go ahead with it. And the scheme was generally over budget anyway, due to the inflationary pressures, so it made sense given there wasn’t the public support there we’d do something else.

What are you expecting from Reform in the Ashton by-election?

We’ll have to wait and see. But if it’s going to be just a focus on immigration we’re going to fight that. Because we have these far-right protests which are due to take place just outside Preston, which many in our community are very scared about. That kind of toxic right-wing politics we will fight.

You’re a county councillor as well, what have you seen so far in terms of Reform in County Hall?

It’s a bit strange because they don’t seem to have done an awful lot or anything that different from the previous Tory administration – which from our perspective wasn’t particularly brilliant anyway.

One thing they do appear to be doing is trying to increase the costs of nursery childcare, which is odd given the government has just brought in the 30-hours free childcare now.

We see Reform talk a good rhetoric but what are they actually doing? It’s hard to know, there’s not anything distinctive – unless you look at the thing about flags. But a flag doesn’t put food on the table, it doesn’t build an affordable home, does it? As important as expressing national pride is, when appropriate, having a priority about flags it’s just strange.

What about Labour nationally? Keir Starmer doesn’t appear very popular, we’ve got potentially one of the most unpopular budgets coming at the end of November….

I think some of the positive things they’ve done, minimum wage going up, public ownership of railways, workers rights bill, those are very positive. I think there needs to be a big shift of direction around policy. We should have a wealth tax, we need more public ownership, so we can tackle the inequalities. We should be reforming things like council tax that really affect working people in our communities.

I think they’ve been a bit too cautious and while there is some experience there from the Brown-Blair years, which sounds ages ago doesn’t it? Maybe they’ve not been radical enough. I think Labour governments are generally brilliant when they are radical. Look at what Clement Attlee did or Harold Wilson but right now we’re one of the most unequal counties in Europe and we need to change that.

Do you think people feel change isn’t happening? They don’t feel it in their pocket? They don’t see it in their day-to-day.

I think that’s probably the case although people are benefiting from changes the government is making but I think with what everyone has been through with deindustrialisation in many communities like Preston, the pandemic, and now often people are in really poorly paid insecure jobs, they want to see things happen quicker and deeper. Labour needs to build on some of the good stuff they’ve done already and potentially really have a more transformative programme based around the socialist values I believe in and many party members believe in.

Do you think Keir Starmer is still the man to deliver?

He’s the elected leader and obviously he will remain. I think what we need is a policy debate about how we take things forward.

And you mentioned about sort of the changing landscape in politics and the changing rhetoric in politics as well. It’s obviously become a lot more inflamed in recent months in particular. There’s been quite a shift in the press and Labour social media accounts in that time. Is that deliberate? It’s, you know, there’s attacks on the press, there’s attacks on us as journalists. Do you think that’s acceptable?

Well, I mean…I think what, obviously, the Preston Labour account is not managed by me.

I think what is happening is that there’s an attempt to really highlight some of the articles that are inaccurate. So I think that’s the intention behind it. I don’t run them, obviously, so I’m not obviously in control of everything. But it’s not necessarily Blog Preston, it’s other articles that we’ve found that there’s just been… There’s just been a lot of things misreported in many ways, and it’s just trying to point that out, I think.

Do you feel that actually you should approach the press, there’s complaints procedures, you can speak to editors, you can speak to journalists, rather than flaming on social media?

Well, I mean, I just think it’s a way of pointing it out. Obviously, I’m not in charge of it, so obviously my style might be different from the person who’s running it, but I just think it’s trying to point out some of the…

But you’re the leader.

I am, yeah.

So even though your name’s not above the door, it’s still your pub, if that makes sense.

Yeah, yeah, possibly, yeah. Well, obviously it is, yeah. But I think what we’re trying to do is obviously just point out any inaccuracies and obviously engage with the press positively. But if there is something that’s said that’s wrong, you know, we just need to point it out because there is a lot of unfairness that is put towards us often. It’s not necessarily from journalists, but it’s often on social media and other things. There seems to be a lot of people just jumping to conclusions and trying to make us out to be people we’re not. We’re getting some… things from the national press which are inaccurate as well. So what we’re doing is making sure that we’re just pointing out anything that might be a little wrong.

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